Sun 18 Feb 2007
Crackdown fails to halt gun deaths
A FRESH wave of gun crime swept England yesterday as armed police took to the streets to clamp down on firearm-related killings.
The latest murders saw a man killed in east London with another three shot and wounded in two incidents in Manchester.
Yesterday's shootings follow a spate of killings in London, which have claimed the lives of three teenagers in a fortnight.
London's latest incident saw a man in his twenties killed in Hackney. Witnesses said three gunmen shot the man in his car shortly before 5.30am before blasting him again as he staggered down the road.
The gunmen were seen walking "confidently" away from their dying victim. He was pronounced dead on arrival at hospital. Witness Gabriel Ajayi, who saw the shooting unfold, said the victim was shot at close range.
Ajayi, 50, whose flat overlooks the scene, was woken by gunshots. He said: "I looked out my window and saw a man lying on the ground on the road and I saw three guys running away. All of a sudden, they came back and shot him twice again at close range. It was a cold-blooded murder."
Officers from the Metropolitan Police's Operation Trident unit, which deals with shootings among the black community, are investigating the incident.
In Manchester, meanwhile, three men are recovering in hospital after being shot in two attacks in the city. In the first incident, late on Friday night, an 18-year-old man was shot in the back in the Moss Side district, close to where Jessie James, 15, was murdered last September in an attack that traumatised the area.
Hours after the Moss Side shooting, two men, aged 19 and 27, were wounded when gunmen shot at the car they were in at a set of traffic lights in the Longsight district. Police have said the shootings were not thought to be linked.
Chief Superintendent Dave Keller, of Greater Manchester Police, said: "We have increased patrols in the area and we do now have some armed officers on patrol." But he added that overall levels of gun crime in the city had been falling, although there has been a rise in recent months.
"Clearly there are tensions in the area," he said. "This problem is only caused by a small number of individuals. We are actively targeting those individuals."
Related topic
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Gun crime
http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=707
This article: http://news.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=262672007
Last updated: 18-Feb-07 00:05 GMT
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Switch the TV off and go educate yourselves, before it is too late :)
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Nor can you trust the police. Just think of the number of unarmed, innocent civilians that have been gunned down by the police; not that they are ever punished for it.
However, it is very unlikely that the government here would ever allow members of the public to carry guns. This goes back to the historical attitude of governments in this country whereby they are too scared that the people might rise up against them. Remember this is the same country where the Whig government sent (English) troops and tanks in against unarmed people in Scotland.
Report as unsuitableUnfortunately the recent spate of shootings in England have been largely confined to young blacks who look across the Pond for their role-models to black American gang culture. Many who have been arrested have stated in their defence the they carry a gun to gain "respect". we don't need a police state to control the problem, just allow the police to do their job without the fear of being accused of racism.
Report as unsuitable#6 Guga We have a fair few blinkered politicians and groups here who want to take away the guns from the people mistakingly thinking it will help fight gun crime. As someone once said (don't know who) "politicians prefer unarmed peasants". Taking away the guns will not work, infact over here I think if they try taking away the guns there would another revolution.
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Keep your chin up Guga, we can't see yer uter feller
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Armed police on the street is a bit like closing the door after the horse has bolted. One solution would be a minumum tariff of 30 years for carrying a gun;commiting a crime with a gun and gun running/supply =life (natural regardless of age). Would this then lead to an increase in the already high level of knife crime? Again stiffer sentencing would reduce the willingness of people to carry them. There are of course everyday items that can be used as weapons should the desire be there. The proof of intent should be enough for harsh sentencing. Build more jails to accomodate violent offenders. This will not stop people who are really determined to carrying out crime from doing so but it will reduce the number of them floating around in public and therfore reduce crime in real terms.
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"For ordinary citizens to carry pistols would be completely impractical without very specific and rigorous training, and in any case this country is far too small to have citizens blazing away". Don't think I can agree with you on that one mate, the State of Michigan is not much bigger than the UK, when our CCW law was sent to the Governor for signing she was having doubts about signing it as she had visions of armed citizens blazing away, however she did sign it and said she would review it in a years time. A year later she admitted her fears were unfounded, no citizens on the street blasting away, what it did do was actually cut crime. The scumbags don't like the playing fields leveled, As for firearms training here is the Minimum standards from the Michigan State Police website.
Firearms Program – Minimum Standards
The program must include instruction in, but not limited to, all of the following:
Safe storage, use and handling of a pistol including, but not limited to, safe storage, use and handling to protect a child
Ammunition knowledge, and the fundamentals of pistol shooting
Pistol shooting positions
Firearms and the law, including civil liability issues and the use of deadly force
Avoiding criminal attack and controlling a violent confrontation
All laws that apply to carrying a concealed pistol in this state
At least 8 hours instruction, including 3 hours of firing range time; which requires firing at least 30 rounds of ammunition.
Most CCW classes are 8 hours classroom time and over a 100 rounds fired on the range before they will issue a certificate after which you have to apply for the permit, have a criminal backround checks and appear before the Concealed Weapons Board.
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A Gunless society is a Terrified society!!!
How I wish I could live in Michigan. There is nothing worse than living in a coutry run by a bunch of knee jerking, egotistical, self centered numpties. I believe in justice for all, and that starts with the right of a victim of crime, no matter whether it be a minor or major crime, to protect themselves at ALL times.What with police officers being shot and killed ( the last one to die was in 2006) and the public being put in danger by gun wielding yobs throughout the Britain ( not U.K., 'cause this country sure ain't united!) it is well past the time that our so called leaders were called to order. We, the law abiding silent majority of Britain, should DEMAND the right to defend ourselves!!! When are the numpties in Westminsterrood going to get a grip on reality and understand some simple basics. As soon as a perp commits a crime no matter what, he/she has in effect held up their hands and said " I have commited a crime, I don't give a damn about the victim and I therefore forego ALL my rights" except, 1) the right to a room with a bed. 2) the right to three square meals a day. 3) The right to rehabilitation. It is about time we, the law abinding populus of this country governed by 17th Century legal attitudes and laws, came together and kicked some political Ass! Lets start to get together once and for all and put the fear out of living in Britain; our law abiding citizens deserve it! I believe you have to fight fire with fire, not politics, so the day must come when law abiding citizens of Britain are allowed to carry concealed weapons akin to our fellow intelligent cousins in U.S.A. Then, and ONLY then, the perps may just think twice before pulling a gun.
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22. blair, east lothian / 12:27pm 18 Feb 2007.
I take it your not Tony.
Your two posts sound, to me, to be the ideal solution - especially if you're not going to hang the ********!
The other good cure I heard of, don't know if it's still done, was that with a thief the Arabs used to chop off a hand.
If you are not going to make the sentence fit the crime then you have to do something to make them think twice.
SNAG! you need brains to think - somehting which seems to be in short supply these days.
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Rule #1: "Leave no witnesses."
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"Gun crime has become one of the biggest topical debates within black communities. For example, rumours and theories abound as to why the police failed to stop the brutal murder of young Jason Fearon outside Turnmills nightclub in London, including the dangerous notion that this was somehow part of a deliberate psycho political campaign against black people. The police, it would
appear, didn't act on the intelligence received via Crimestoppers from a member of the public who provided details, naming the target, venue, time, date, location, the motive and even the type of weapon likely to be used. The response from the police to deploy an empty marked vehicle outside the club was seen as a kick in the teeth, as though black lives were cheap."
http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/claudia_webbe/2007/02...
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Go pussycats kill kill!!
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you don't seem to have ever fired a 44 magnum full house pistol or you wouldn't advocate a firm grip
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IT IS TIME for the death penalty to be re-introduced and I think we are going to see a lot more people calling for it.
This sort of behaviour is unacceptable, it is barbaric and entirely de-humansisng. The perpertrators should be caught and hanged from the gallows.
Report as unsuitableSo, if they beat you to death with a pipe, it's just fine with the government?
Until you folks get to the point where you actually put criminals in jail, and where a person who defends themself is applauded not prosecuted, your problems will only get worse.
Which means you're doomed, since you'll never be rid of Labour and it's philosophy.
Report as unsuitableChild molesters should to be drawn and quartered.
A person defending Family and property shouldnt be charged with anything.
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When will the masses realize guns do not kill people, bad people kill people. I remember when violent crime went down in several states in the US when they passed concealed carry laws. The crime did not go down because armed citizens were carrying weapons; it was because criminals thought twice about it not knowing who might be armed around them.
When the violent crime rates went down in Florida after they passed the concealed carry law the criminals wised up and started targeting people landing at airports since they knew they would be unarmed coming off a plane and crime went up toward people in rental cars leaving the airports. That’s why Germany encouraged their people to start buying (NRA) hats after some of their citizens fell victim to the criminals new safer plan of attack
Report as unsuitableIt is pro-police state (only police, military and selected elite have guns) versus pro-self defense (whether against the thugs the government continually releases into the general population or against a criminal government, take your pick).
Therefore, on that basis in England, you are a police state!
Unfortunately, police can't be everywhere when crimes are underway AND NEVER WILL BE. Just look at the crime statistics in England on crimes the police actully interrupted. The number is statistically insignificant.
You want to win against government catch and release scumbags, you have to have the weapons to fight back!
Report as unsuitable#39 Boppa LOL, a pretty good arguement there mate. Nah I don't think the UK is a Police state, if anything the UK is a very liberal place with very liberal laws, laws that are so liberal that they favour the criminal over the victim. Commit murder in the UK and you get Life, unfortunately life there means around 20 years and if your a good boy and jump through all the hoops a murderer can be out in 15 years.
#34 Media1, time for the death penalty you said, Hmm don't mate, I think there would have to proof, (for me anyways) beyond all doubt. Don't know if you know it mate but it turned out that the last man hanged in the UK turned out to be innocent, the guy who actualy pulled the trigger on a policeman made a deathbed confession.
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Harsh? Yes indeed, but what the alternative?
Report as unsuitableKeep your chin up Guga, we can't see yer uter feller
Thank you DLG,
I've tried tying wee rocks to the end of it and and holding him in warm water to no avail. I even tried the mail order garbage to pump him up but it only lasts a minute or two.
Guga
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I find it interesting that you should compare a non handgun state with the US.How many shooting deaths were there in Detroit,Washington or Salt Lake City in the same time period?We also have the problem with illegal handguns( smuggled in from the US I might add) but the rate of handgun murder in all of Canada for 1 year is about the same as for Detroit in an average month.Check it out on Wiki.
Dont give us that crap about law abiding citizens being OK to licence handguns-if they are available they will be used.Stats -There are 2 and one half handguns for every person in the US.This Wild West mentality is perpetrated by people like yourself and the NRA-And you wonder why there is so many armed roberies and shootings in the Us . Give me gun control anyday even if it is not 100% effective.
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Each city has its share of gangsters and shooting deaths are generally confined to turf wars.
My friend in Scotland keeps a handgun in his home, I wonder how many other Scots do also.
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wholly repugnant in a supposed civilised society, but you cannot ignore the fact that no state which is a member state of the european union can be or remain so if it retains or re introduces the death penalty.
Bear this in mind when you make your feeble inaccurate knejerk reactionary support for this barbaric
inhumane practise which devalues the people of any country which still lives in the barbarism of other times.
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Compare these stats with those of any country let alone those with gun control.Lets hear it for the NRA and the right to bare arms-!
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If there's one thing we DON'T need, it's America telling us how to make the UK more law-abiding - a bit like the Devil advising on airconditioning!
I cannot see that increasing the number of guns on the streets can do other than increase the amount of gun crime.
Report as unsuitableCertainly some criminals will always find guns - the trick is surely to make it as difficult as possible for them to do so, and to make the penalties for carrying/using a gun so severe that it's not worth their while, no matter what colour is the finger on the trigger.
#20 blair, interesting what you're saying about Singapore; if it's true, then wouldn't we be better following their lead?
I'll trust your numbers are correct. We all know when the other side argues this issue they will never break the numbers down. The accidental shooting numbers seems high and the question begs how many resulted in death? We know that a large % of those accidental shootings only required band-aids or same day surgeries. I'm sure several readers might see that number and assume those accidental shootings resulted in death.
I can only assume those accidental shooting numbers that resulted in death are low because more people die in car crashes just in the state of California than do all of the people in the entire United States of America from accidental shootings.
Accidental shootings are sad, as are any accidental death. People fall off the side the Grand Canyon. More children die from drowning each year than they do from gun shots in the US. With your logic we should run around locking up mothers who allow their children who go swimming as they might drown, and stop people from driving.
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Yes he is, the gun never leaves the house but I pity anyone who broke in and was a threat to his family. The way justice is today in the UK he would probably be headed off to jail. One thing though the burglar would be headed off to the funeral home.
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Sambo 48. While the majority of illegal guns may be held by gansters carrying out turf wars, they do so in public places which means you and I can get caught in the crossfire and how good is the concealed weapon then?
Report as unsuitableCar crashes are not caused by Guns. What is the relationship between the two?
Drowning vs gunshot for kids? Try all drownings against all gun related casualties. My logic is fine thank you very much . Is yours?
Chech out Wikipedia Gun Violence in the US
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Judge Alex Kozinsky
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So what's your point? Are you suggesting they are correlated?
The point should be that accidental shootings are wholly avoidable : no guns, no shooting accidents.
23000+ accidents avoided in the USA alone, at no loss.
You would then be left with only such accidents as you cite, like people falling off the Grand Canyon(!) But at least it's unlikely that innocent bystanders are about to be involved in THAT accident.
Report as unsuitableWith the amount of gun related violence in the US perhaps "doomsday" is nearer than you think.
You Da Judge--- The original reason for including the right of the citizen to carry arms was to provide for a volunteer militia not to allow gun nutters to run at large.
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If you feel insulted by any of my adjectives, be so good
as to inform me which you regard as insults, those are my genuinly held feelings, which I am entitled to express.
I have on many occassions, on this and other forums raised many good points against the death penalty, I am now fed up re iterating them, to have them ignored by the barbarian lobby, it is they who reject reasoned debate, not I.
Media 1 is well aware of my stance and is capable of answering for himself, he has chosen not to.
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if you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns.
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He would shoot first would he not.
If an handgun was not expected would here not be a much lesser chance of death by handguns?
Many deaths of crime victims by criminals are caused by the victims own guns--this includes police officer deaths.
Own a handgun -no thanks partner.
Up the NRA!
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what price freedom of expression in the UK.
Report as unsuitableNot anymore in Scotland apparently.
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Three for the Gun lobby and the NRA.
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Will NOT comment ON YOUR PROBLEM.
HERE IN CANADA;
We do not recognize the FACT much of problem is with a few" bad apples" in our recent immigrations.
(IT is politically incorrect to mention their race)
If these individuals ARE arrested we do NOT deport them(where the opportunity exists) OR punish them appropriately for their criminal acts... IF THEY ARE FOUND GUILTY.
OUR "JUSTICE AUTHORITIES" spend more in time, and expense , in the concern of the "PERPS" rather than the rights of the victims.
There is also more concern of enforcing REGULATIONS among the (mostly)Law abiding citizens( ie someone with an unregisted rifle ..or smoking pot)
As a general rule WE ALLOW CRIMINALS OF ANY RACE (murderers, child molesters ) off with "a slap on the wrist". So at least we are consistant with our STUPIDITY, and do not discriminate
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be real and face some facts:
Many "Bag Guys (B.G.) belong to gangs and organizations that have little trouble getting firearms. Where do you guys think these guns are coming from? The candy shop at the end of the block? These groups can get anything they want and they have the finances to get them, build them, machine them? If a B.G. would shoot thinking you are carrying he would shoot you not carrying!! Most B.G. do not want a murder charge. The innocent guy would/should be exempt because of the ago old and accepted theory of "self defense"! People please, please wake up and realize it will only get worse. If the B.G.'s will shoot armed policemen why do you feel you are safe?
I challenge you to think about this.
Report as unsuitableThought about it-Its a lot of crap. We want to add to the problem by adding more firearms to the general public causing more deaths?
I think not.
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Cheers for the ban on handguns and up the NRA!
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#60 Scott, I stand corrected mate.
#68 Gorm, Ok I see your argument mate and it's a good one, but by the same reasoning if a criminal knows HE could get shot breaking into a house or mugging someone, well it has the advantage of making them think twice. Look this is a two way street, there are always reasons for and against everything. You have your beliefs I have mine, but let me tell you something mate, I am a law abiding person, I don't bother anybody and I don't try to take away what isn't mine, I will do whatever it takes to defend me and my family from the bad bastards out there and if that means using deadly force to protect my family so be it. It's not a perfect world pal I would love to live in a world were I don't have to worry about gun crime, but I don't, and until I do I refuse to be a victim to the scumbags out there. Such an action may cost me my life but at least I'll go down fighting. Enough of trash taking away what doesn't belong to them just because they can. Anybody wants to take my stuff or try to hurt my family they will have to go through me first.
Report as unsuitableThat's the trouble with statistice, these include police shooting, gang members shooting gang members and self defense.
Report as unsuitableAppreciate your sentiments.Come on up to your northern neighbour where we have gun control and owning an unlicenced one is a criminal offense.Besides not having to be overly concerned about gun violence we like Scots no matter where they come from-For that matter we like Yanks too-We just can't understand the gun laws .Make handguns all illegal and posession prosecuted excepting police etc of course, if you want to put a dent in the statistics.This would never be allowed by the US gun manufacturers , the gun lobby or our friend the NRA. Why do sane people dance to their tune.Does NRA mean Not Fully Normal?
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Not so clever comment. also, see you aren't clever enough to dispute my assessment
Report as unsuitableOnly 28 thousand 6 hundred 63 hand gun deaths in the US in 2000!-What a relief ,Im sure you sleep well.I believe that year there were 63 in Canada.
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if you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns.
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nell from falkirk #66 yes...and your point is???
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Nell, the point is, you and your country have arrived, or did you not read the newspaper article that started these comments.
The correct total for the whole country was 474 homicides (all causes) for the year 2000.
Check Wiki under Homicide Rates
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PS Do you know how Canada got it's name? drop me an email if you want at georgef220@hotmail.com and I'll tell you eh.
Report as unsuitableShall we discuss the possibility that disarmament is another step along the path to realization of Rousseau's dream of the "Social Contract" in which there are two classes: the rulers and the ruled?
Just a question for thought.
Report as unsuitableShall we discuss the possibility that disarmament is another step along the path to realization of Rousseau's dream of the "Social Contract" in which there are two classes: the rulers and the ruled?
Just a question for thought.